Surviving and Thriving: What Top Mortgage Originators Need From Their Companies

Dave Holland [00:00:00]:
It's easy to blame the company that you're at.

Robert Fillyaw [00:00:02]:
It's always easy to blame the company.

Dave Holland [00:00:04]:
But a lot of times it's, it's not the company they're at. They're at a great company. They're at company where people are closing 20, 30, 80, $100 million. Right. Sometimes just the lo. And it's hard to look at yourself, right, and say I'm the problem and not the company.

Robert Fillyaw [00:00:38]:
Hey, guys, what's up? Welcome back to another exciting episode of Lending Leadership with the Mortgage Pros. My name is Robert Philyaw, managing partner with HMA Mortgage. Excited to be joining my cohorts here, Tom Mills and Dave Holland. Hey fellas. How are y' all doing today?

Tom Mills [00:00:56]:
What's going on?

Dave Holland [00:00:57]:
Doing great. I'm glad to be back.

Robert Fillyaw [00:00:58]:
Excited about the topic today. You know, I wanted to kick this off, we're gonna, we're gonna be talking about a little bit about how do you know, you know you're in the right place? How do you know you're in the right company? And I heard a really interesting statistic this week. I'm doing some coaching with Richard Milligan, who is probably the, the OG goat when it comes to recruiting and, and everything, all things building your team. Right. And he shared a couple stats with me. I'm going to share with you guys and, and kind of kick this conversation off. Did you guys know 29 of all originator moves happen in Q4. Kind of timely as we're coming into as, as we're in, in Q4 now, 22 of originators that produce $20 million or less will make a move.

Robert Fillyaw [00:01:48]:
And 15% of originators that produce between 20 and 50 million will make a move. And so of those moves, 29% of all of them, almost a third happen in the last quarter of the year. What do you guys think of that?

Dave Holland [00:02:03]:
Well, the fourth quarter number is not shocking to me. That makes sense. Right. Business is usually a little slower in most parts of the country the fourth quarter, but the fact that 22% of people closing 20 million or less move and 15, 20 to 50 million in total move, that's, that, that's a crazy stat to me that, that, that many people are unhappy. I wonder what that stat looks like five years ago or six years ago with people getting big, signing, signing bonuses and kind of getting stuck at their current spot.

Tom Mills [00:02:34]:
Yeah, I mean that's, that's certainly going to slow some people down from moving. I, I, I wonder, I think that while it has something to do with the time of the year. And I think you make the, some think make the move in Q4 to start the year off right and the next year. And I think that's a lot of times people are always looking ahead at that next year and waiting to get something started for the next year. And I think when they look at that, they should, they should be looking at what are they putting in place right now and what are they doing right now to, to make sure that next year is a good, you know, a great year ahead and, and ultimately sometimes that makes it, that means a move. But you know, the average loan officers with their company, I think it's somewhere like two and a half years, so.

Robert Fillyaw [00:03:19]:
Two and a half years? Yeah. That's also 30.

Tom Mills [00:03:22]:
Don't really surprise me because it's going to have to shake down to that.

Robert Fillyaw [00:03:26]:
Yeah, it's shocking I think, especially for guys like us who focus so much on retention and, and you know, are blessed, right, with, with loan officers that are with us a long time and, and come in and really turn into families. So I think that like we kind of look at that two and a half year number and kind of scratch our, our heads. I wonder, Tom, to your point, it's interesting. I wonder if, you know, some of these others just go into business planning and starting to, to prepare for the next year and kind of look at the, the year that they're ending and they're like, well, damn, I, I'm nowhere near where I want to be. And why is that? And you know, maybe is there a better mousetrap? Is it, is there something that I'm missing that I need to go out there and see if, if I can find.

Dave Holland [00:04:07]:
It's easy to blame the company that you're at.

Robert Fillyaw [00:04:09]:
It's always easy to blame the company, right?

Dave Holland [00:04:12]:
And you know, there's a shiny object over here or this CRM is better. You know, I think sometimes they're los or at a bad company. Bad leadership, bad tech, bad ops, whatever the case may be high rates, but a lot of times it's, it's not the company they're at. They're at a great company. They're a company where people are closing 20, 30, 80, $100 million. Right. Sometimes just the lo. And it's hard to look at yourself, right, and say I'm the problem and not the company.

Tom Mills [00:04:44]:
Sure thing.

Robert Fillyaw [00:04:45]:
Well, I think, I think the, you know, that, that's definitely hard, right? And I think that's where leadership comes in. It's interesting because I, and I've Seen this, right? You can be an lo and be at a great company, but it may not be the company for you. Right. Like, and I think as an originator, this is one of the things I love about our business and I talk about all the time, right. There's no one way to do this. There's no one single way to skin a cat. You may be that originator that's like, I need every piece of tech and that's how you do your business. You may be the originator that.

Robert Fillyaw [00:05:15]:
Wait for it. Dave wants tons of flyers, right? And flyers.

Dave Holland [00:05:21]:
Let's spend the rest of the show talking about flyers and how you may.

Robert Fillyaw [00:05:25]:
Be that originator that you've got to have the lowest cost on the street. Right. So depending on really kind of how you're building your business and what you're looking to achieve and accomplish and tackle, I think is going to be part of. Are you at the right shop or not? What is the right shop for you? Those are probably some good questions we should dive into.

Tom Mills [00:05:43]:
Here's the thing, though. We could get granular as we want to get into this. And you mentioned tech and product and tools and rates and speed and automation and all these things play a role. But let's kind of. It really rolls down to two things. Loan officers want one of two things. They either want to make more money doing the exact same amount of work that they're doing, or they want to make the same amount of money doing less work. Right.

Tom Mills [00:06:10]:
It's either you're. You're like, I need to make more or money's fine. I'm just burnt. And I think it really rolls down to those. Those two areas is what, what drives people to lead or think or leave or think that those solutions, they have to move outside for them. And sometimes, sometimes they do.

Dave Holland [00:06:30]:
In the last two and a half weird years have been weird for a lot of companies.

Robert Fillyaw [00:06:34]:
So weird.

Dave Holland [00:06:35]:
So we went from the highest of the highs to the lowest lows very quickly. People who are closing a lot of business, a lot in their business has been cut down by in some cases, guys, what we've seen 80%, 75, 80%. But yeah, I agree with you, Tom. It's make more money or do less work, especially for a more seasoned lo.

Tom Mills [00:06:57]:
Yeah, we've seen some companies reinventing themselves too. You know, lost big key producers, but, you know, many of them rebounded and brought big key producers in. And so there's a different cultural shift and you have different people working for different leaders. And, you know, I think a Lot of that's happening. You know this was a, you know, kudos to the companies and the leaders that, that retain their sales force over the last couple years. I would absolutely say that this is probably the, the toughest retention period that we've seen in a 24 month span.

Robert Fillyaw [00:07:29]:
Absolutely ever in the history of our business. The toughest retention center. Right. Because people get frustrated and today's point right there, there's not a lot of looking inward and the market's down and people want to have some sense of control over their business and what's the thing that they can change? It's well where do I hang my shingle? Right. Where, where am I working with? So that gives them some sense of control that they're going to be proactive and change their business I think. So if you can work around that and retain your people and if you have in this market. Absolutely kudos to you to those companies.

Dave Holland [00:08:03]:
How does the lo know he's at the him or her know that they're at the right place? I mean that's our question.

Robert Fillyaw [00:08:09]:
The flip side of that I think to dig into and I'm interested to hear your guys is what's like what's your non starters. How do you know when it's time to go like what are the signs? Right. It's going to be different for everybody but there's. There's some concretes out there.

Dave Holland [00:08:23]:
Right.

Robert Fillyaw [00:08:24]:
I know for me in, in the the as I look back on any moves I've made it was either A operational challenges that did not get addressed and corrected. Right. Difficulty closing loans, missing closing dates, things of that nature or B to Tom like Tom's talking about being able to make more money by doing the same business. I was trying to implement things to build my team and I got railroaded. I, I got stuck that I wasn't allowed to, you know, couldn't scale piece in. I couldn't scale exactly. So those, those two for me were kind of non like if, if those two things go sideways I'm picking up the phone and having conversations.

Dave Holland [00:09:03]:
Well, you know, with leadership of an organization too, so much was kind of swept under the rug the last couple years. Leadership and ownership didn't want to talk about specific the issues and stuff like that. And I think sometimes with ownership you want people who are heavily invested and have a big chunk of their net worth and life savings in the company. Right. They are all in.

Tom Mills [00:09:25]:
They are ownership or leadership or the sometimes problem becomes a number of layers between all that. You know. But you know as you guys know, I spent a lot of time talking to originators. I think I feel like I get a good temperature out there. And you know, one of the early on questions I like, I like to ask is, you know, tell me about your relationship with your leadership and, and I'll, it'll tell me everything about if that person is going to move and be one of the ones that moves in the next three years or not. It tells everything about it now. I hear a lot of, well, I was recruited by this guy, but then he got let go or he left and took this big chunk of production out and then he tried to pull me to this company and I've been assigned to their manager. And you know, he's cool.

Tom Mills [00:10:11]:
You know, we talked a few times. You know, but it, you can tell that they're not getting guided, they're, they're not getting, you know, shot straight. They don't feel a partnership. And you know, in this much more remote now time that we're in, loan officers have more independence and not that good leadership micromanages that, but it's, it's helping them, it's showing them a path, it's, it's trying to pull them down that path. And I, I see a lot of people just unsure where to turn. Kind of like squirrels right now, you.

Robert Fillyaw [00:10:44]:
Know, Squirrels in the road. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, you know, we, we talk about that too. Right. I think this goes hand in hand. There's a severe lack of leadership in our industry and you get these originators that are, you know, out on an island. They, they, you know, put their faith and trust in someone to make a move and then they look up that someone's gone and they're, they're kind of on an island and trying to figure it out on their own. And that's tough, that's a tough spot to be in.

Dave Holland [00:11:11]:
Oh yeah, I can't remember who said it, but over promise and never deliver. You know, between the tech, the leadership, the rates, a lot of people get a 90 or 180 day rate sheet where their rates pop up. I mean that, that would be devastating if you came on board with a certain expectation and then six months down the line, everything changes.

Robert Fillyaw [00:11:35]:
Why do, let's ask. Let's. I'm curious about this. Why, like, why, why do recruiters and, and leaders in our industry pull this crap? Honestly, like, honestly.

Dave Holland [00:11:47]:
Because once they bring them in the door, there's no, there's, there's no accountability toward, towards them. Right. So they bring in the wrong I.

Robert Fillyaw [00:11:57]:
Think people are just going to take it.

Dave Holland [00:11:59]:
Yeah. And they've signed a one or two year contract and we all know it's hard and emotional to move, so they think they got them by the hooks. I mean, ethically, that's just, that's just awful.

Robert Fillyaw [00:12:09]:
Horrible. And, and I, I know one of the things we talk about, right. And it's, it's true. Like, I'm never, like, I've never recruited someone and blown smoke because it doesn't in our business. Like, it doesn't take a real long time to be here and know that what I told you wasn't true and I blew smoke. And I can look you, I can look you in the eye again, having that conversation. Like, I don't want to do that. Yeah, you know, we, we touched on it.

Robert Fillyaw [00:12:34]:
We got away from it a little bit. How, how do you know when you're in the right place?

Dave Holland [00:12:37]:
So much so, I think so much of that is subjective in how you feel while you're there.

Robert Fillyaw [00:12:44]:
Right. Some of it's feeling right, some of.

Dave Holland [00:12:46]:
It'S gut, but some, some of it's introspection. If, if you have a good leader, sales manager, ops leader, you can kind of get the feel from them and they can give you a gut check as well too. Like, you know, hey, hey, Robert, you're full of it. You know, tighten up a little bit, make some more calls.

Tom Mills [00:13:02]:
I think first of all, I mean, I'll say if somebody's in these three areas, if somebody's in a position that they feel like they can grow, they can give amazing service and they have balance in their life, they shouldn't consider leaving. There's, there's no amount of money a company can pay them or no tech or nothing that they should be able to be sold on. Because those three things, that's, that's your harmony and that, that means your whole, not just your business is good. Like your life is good. When you can grow, it means you're making good money, you're providing a service, you're going to work, you're not stressed out, you're, you're proud of what you're doing and that that's, and, and you're balanced, which means things at home are good, you know, and, and, and you're not a slave to your job. Don't change employers. Bottom line, you're good.

Robert Fillyaw [00:13:47]:
Don't even take the call. Don't, don't even open Pandora's box. Because listen, it's, it's going to, here's, here's What I say all the time, right. Don't. If you're not looking to make a move, if you're not in a spot where you think, hey, I need to look at this, don't even open the door because it's a distraction. If you are in a spot where you need to look at making a move, open the door fully, pick four or five places and, and start having conversations like. Right. Like.

Robert Fillyaw [00:14:13]:
I think that's important too.

Tom Mills [00:14:14]:
I think too. I mean, you know, let's say, you know, you're a branch manager and you want to build a half a billion dollar branch, right? Or, or let's say you're a loan officer and you're doing 30 million, you're on a pat, like you got hard set goals to get to a hundred million. I, I think if you don't look within the organization you're in and you see those success stories happening, the path is not there at your company, right. So you, you have to force pave that path there. You know, maybe there's a company that, the path to 100 million, a path to a half a billion, the path from 0 to 20 million dollar producer, whatever it is, that path you want, they have those, those stories, you know, and, and that validation that like, hey, here's how it's done, here's how we did it, here's how such and such did it. And those two, those things are available to you. Follow that path because it's probably easier than forcing it on your own if, if the path's not there.

Dave Holland [00:15:13]:
Don't reinvent the wheel is what I hear. Tom. Right? Don't reinvent the wheel.

Robert Fillyaw [00:15:16]:
Absolutely. Well, and make sure, make sure that where, if that's the journey you want to go on. And we could go on so many tangents with this, right? Because first of all, you got to know where you want to go. Like you, you got to have a goal of what you're building to and what you. Where you want to take your business, right? So we talked to so many ELOs who have no idea, right? So that's where you got to start. But if, if, you know, like if you're doing $3 million a month and you're an ello that wants to do $10 million a month and there's nobody at your company doing that, that's something to look around, right? You're not going to reinvent the wheel, but the will is not at your company. You got to go to the company that's got the wheel that you can use. Right? I use the analogy all the time with people that most originators that we talk to are really smart and they will figure it out over time.

Robert Fillyaw [00:16:01]:
Yeah, but at what opportunity cost, at what stress cost? Like, you're at the, you're at the base of a forest with a machete in your hand and you got to chop through the other side. You're going to get there. Yeah, but you may, that, that next opportunity may have already pushed a road through, paved, didn't have a Ferrari sitting there for you to jump in.

Tom Mills [00:16:18]:
You know, when you look at that too, I mean, you know, looking at what, what a company has to offer, the people that are touching your loans, the resources that you're given, the success stories that they told told you, which lured you there, like, how do they help you put that into action to create those same successes? You know, that's really what it comes, what it comes down to. I feel like a lot of people, I hear just like, you know, a lot of people just feel like they're in a, in a kind of a stagnant environment. Like, you know, stagnant a lot. I think a lot of people have been told one thing by leadership, seen another, lost a little bit of trust. And, you know, looking around like, what are we doing? We're not growing. We're, you know, they're a little unsure. You see so many mergers and acquisitions happening today, and it's an uncertain time. I think that's also what makes people not move like that.

Tom Mills [00:17:07]:
That's some of the hesitation of like I've seen, you know, originators are scared to make a move and then the company gets bought by another company. You know, that would be terrible. Can you imagine that, guys? You make a move, you sell your referral partners, why this company is so great, and then two months later you, you wake up and, and there's a company call and you just got a couple acquired.

Robert Fillyaw [00:17:26]:
Listen, I, I live that. I work for a company that got bought by a bank, right. And as we're navigating those waters and figuring out they got that bank up bought by another bank.

Tom Mills [00:17:39]:
Yeah, it's different when you've been with that group a long time because you can be like, hey, it's the same people. We're moving together. It's, you know, we, we got strong, but like, you know, it's like you're the new guy there and then you just got jerked around. And yeah, that's, that's a tough one, but that there's a lot of people that have been through that and I Think you know, people's. Dave, you said something early earlier on in the call about people that took like big paychecks and I think a lot of them like aren't. They're not. Look, they're not. That's not what they're looking for.

Tom Mills [00:18:12]:
This go around. That's not what they're looking for in their next home. They're not looking for the next two year contract. We aren't contract employees. I don't know what happened to our industry to where it happened what, a.

Dave Holland [00:18:22]:
Decade ago, eight years ago.

Robert Fillyaw [00:18:24]:
People like the legal red tape signing bonuses and then the non solicits and the non competes and the like. I've seen some crazy stuff out there, right? Stuff I would know. Like I'm like, did you even read this before you signed it? What were you thinking? Have you guys talked to anyone that, that took a, you know, a large payday from one of the, let's be real, one of the, the bigger companies, right. We know they were just writing fat checks. Have you guys talked to anyone that has. Was like, man, I'm really happy here. I'm really glad I took all this money and came here. I haven't talked to a single person.

Robert Fillyaw [00:18:58]:
I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure they're out there. I'm not trying to poke the bear. I'm sure they exist. I have not met one that's like, yeah, I'm really happy here. And you know, that money was just kind of the gravy on top. Everything else is amazing.

Dave Holland [00:19:10]:
Everyone seems to be moderately happy or not happy at all and waiting, waiting for their contract to expire.

Tom Mills [00:19:16]:
Well look, when you took that Money in early 22 like 20 changes were going to happen. Your business also went, you know, down pretty significantly, you know, so you know, I think it's just, it's been on, that's been an unsettling time period for those, those people because they came in and then you know, the floor fell out on us and you know, and changes happen. They're working through those changes with people that hadn't even established a trust with yet, you know, and, and that trust was lost and, and then they're fighting from that day forward to gain it back. And, and you got them on a two year contract and the time is ticking, you know, it's a lot of.

Robert Fillyaw [00:19:54]:
Moving pieces all at once.

Tom Mills [00:19:55]:
Yeah. You know, look, you don't retain when their time's up. You retain. I think leadership retains people by the little things they do every single day. You Know, you don't just go into retention mode. You're always in retention mode. And, and as a leader, I, I would, I recruit my own people first. We recruit our own people first, you know, because we put a lot into them.

Tom Mills [00:20:16]:
I'd rather not lose somebody than bring somebody else in.

Robert Fillyaw [00:20:19]:
You know, it' much easier to keep the talent that you have and help them do an extra, you know, two or three units a month than to go out and get somebody to move. And, you know, we love doing that too, but it's like, you got to take care of your people. That's leadership. Right? So we talked a little bit about the average time that Anello moves, right? The two and a half year mark or so. Is there any thought or conversation around you can be somewhere too long. Do you guys think that, like, there's a, there's a measurement where you're like, okay, I've been here eight years. I need to go see what's out there because I've been here so long.

Dave Holland [00:21:00]:
I, I don't think there's a time period, right. As Tom mentioned, if, if your business is good, your balance, your home life is good, you could be at the same company your entire career. Right? But I think some companies, depending on their journey, sometimes may get a little. Get a little stale, for lack of a better word, you know, that they need to refresh the entire operation. Unless there's growth and leadership within the organization, things can kind of just kind of fade away.

Robert Fillyaw [00:21:30]:
No, I, I agree. I think, you know, I think as originators, we have to be invigorated daily.

Tom Mills [00:21:37]:
Right?

Robert Fillyaw [00:21:37]:
Like, we have to be motivated. A hard job. Right? It's a hard job. And especially looking back on the last two years, like, you literally, kudos to everyone out there listening who's still an originator, right? Who, who has went through the last two years when I tell you that it's the most difficult market that's ever existed in the mortgage lending space, I am like, it's 100. The most difficult. I've been in this business over 20 years, you know, through the crash, the, the Great Recession, all of that, that what we have experienced the last two years is the most difficult market we've seen. Humble and humbled. And no doubt those of you who, who have grinded it out and made it, kudos to you, you should be really proud of yourself because you got up every day and you went to work and you did what you needed to do while getting your teeth kicked in by the market by no refis, by no Purchase business, you know, by just all of it.

Robert Fillyaw [00:22:29]:
And you persevered. So you should be proud of yourselves.

Tom Mills [00:22:31]:
And then there's those that are just in the survive till 25, but like some are thriving in 24. And, and extra kudos to those.

Robert Fillyaw [00:22:40]:
Like, you know, we see it because.

Tom Mills [00:22:42]:
Yeah, I seen some people having their best years. That's like, that's really inspirational. And I don't care if that person's been an originator for two years or, or they just figured out how to turn it up and in their 10th year of their. Their career and, and have one of their best years on this year. Those stories are out there. I know some of those stories.

Dave Holland [00:23:02]:
We've seen them.

Tom Mills [00:23:02]:
Everyone can learn from those people. And, and, and what you always find is that, you know, you make a bigger deal out of things than they do. They, the rate game's not in their head. The, you know, somebody said make X amount of dials, talk to X amount of people. It equals this. And, and they went and did that.

Robert Fillyaw [00:23:22]:
And I was like, okay, like, oh.

Tom Mills [00:23:24]:
My God, this, this works. And then they just went and did it again and again and again. And you know, man, they're the soldiers out there in a really tough environment. And I think that's. They're just feeling that own word momentum that the winds behind your sales versus like pushing against it is which I think a lot of people put themselves in a position, you know, and when.

Dave Holland [00:23:44]:
I see people like that, it's. It's honestly inspiring. Makes me think I need to double down and go after it.

Tom Mills [00:23:52]:
Learn from that person. Tell me what you're doing. Like I want to hear from them.

Dave Holland [00:23:55]:
What are you doing? Doing it for 18 months. What are you doing different?

Robert Fillyaw [00:23:59]:
I love it. So, you know, we talked about the, the checks to sign on money kind of being a draw for people. And you know, let's be real, that that was probably for, for a lot of people who moved in late 21, early 22, that, that probably played a part in it. That's not really in the market as much now. We're not seeing it. What are you guys seeing? That is kind of the differentiator that originators are looking for. They've said, okay, I can't scale here, I can't grow. I can't do the things I don't have the balance.

Robert Fillyaw [00:24:30]:
It's time for me to make a move. Here are the, the non negotiables that I'm looking for as I make a move. What are you guys seeing that those things are What?

Tom Mills [00:24:38]:
Hello, Are we talking about, are we talking about high producing yellow? Are we talking you know under 25 million or over 20?

Robert Fillyaw [00:24:45]:
Does it doesn't matter. Are they different?

Tom Mills [00:24:48]:
Yeah.

Robert Fillyaw [00:24:48]:
And if they are, let's, let's, let's put them in buckets and kick it around.

Dave Holland [00:24:52]:
I mean it does matter. Go ahead, Tom.

Tom Mills [00:24:55]:
I think the higher level producer is looking to find a company that more gets behind them than them kind of get behind the company. You know there's a big focus today on you know, the modern originator creating your own brand. You know and, and there's companies that support that and there's, there's those that don't. And then I think you know, people went through that like change in companies, companies acquired things like that. So they're, they're, they're a little sensitive to their name change. So they really want to. The Philly all mortgage team, the, these brands have become, have become more important to larger producing teams and then they want to, they want to see that path towards the next level that, that they're trying to get to that, that's what I see on the, on the.

Robert Fillyaw [00:25:43]:
Whatever that next level may be. But you see with those higher producers they have some target or some goal of where they want to drive to.

Tom Mills [00:25:50]:
Absolutely.

Dave Holland [00:25:51]:
Yeah.

Tom Mills [00:25:52]:
Yeah. Most post top producers don't end up there by.

Robert Fillyaw [00:25:55]:
It's not happen as we know. Yeah. Dave, what are you seeing on this? On the, you know the smaller producers, let's say sub 20 million, you know.

Dave Holland [00:26:04]:
Some fuzzy things that's hard to quantify. They're looking for energy, they're looking for someone to guide them, they're looking for someone to show them the way. Right. You know, the conversations that I have are how did you get here? Tell me what to do.

Robert Fillyaw [00:26:21]:
So as predicts future. Right. Like making sure there's examples of what you want to achieve.

Dave Holland [00:26:26]:
Exactly. They're looking and holding their hand isn't the right word but they're, they're really looking for someone to guide them and say do this on Monday, do this on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Makes X amount of calls, here's who you call. They're looking. I mean we look at all of our sales training, right. My sales training was here's a telephone, here's a 1103, start making some calls. Right. Fresh out of college, I had no idea.

Dave Holland [00:26:53]:
They're looking for someone. I mean you know, novel idea, you know, show someone how to sell and show someone how to be a mortgage originator.

Tom Mills [00:27:01]:
They're also looking for, they're Looking for marketing support like your bigger producers. They have some, you know, built support within their teams and then they make more money. So they're investing in, in certain, their marketing. But the 3 to 5 loan a month originators trying to figure out how to market and they don't really, they realize they don't know how to, they realize they kind of need to. And, and look guys, you guys see loan originators that post this video that you see it on your scroll and they got four hours into editing that thing and you know, they put, took four hours to post that 30, you know, second video that you know, 78 people watched a quarter of.

Dave Holland [00:27:42]:
Not a good use of their time.

Tom Mills [00:27:43]:
Yeah. Make a make call. 40 people in that time. Good lord, like there's an easier path. And so I, I think that you know, you can still make the calls and there's other resources that other organizations have to help kind of solve that. But you know, in the end of the day, like there's certain things that make us money and, and hours and spending time doing video in, in the mortgage business doesn't relate. Doing video does relate. You have to be able to figure out how to do it efficiently, you know, whatever it is, you know, we have to figure out how we're focusing on what, what makes us money, you know, what, what, what makes that originator's business tick and grow and be doing that.

Tom Mills [00:28:23]:
And really that's the grunt work behind like marketing. It's more just, you know, getting on, executing on it.

Dave Holland [00:28:30]:
What are you seeing out there, Robert?

Robert Fillyaw [00:28:31]:
Yeah, I mean I think it, you know, it varies a little bit from lo to lo. I think it is important to talk about it kind of segmented by production because what they're looking for, you know, is, is different. I think we've touched on a lot of it. You know, I think, I think a lot of originators tend to focus on asking about product. Right. And price. What's your doctor's loan?

Tom Mills [00:28:55]:
Do you have a doctor's loan?

Robert Fillyaw [00:28:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Hey, tell me about your one time closed construction. Hey, that's, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked. How many of those did you close in the last 12 months? Well, well, zero. I haven't ever closed one. But I want to know, do you have it right? So I think that they do that because they don't know what else to do, what else to ask.

Robert Fillyaw [00:29:13]:
Right. Maybe necessarily. It's like, it's like when a client calls and says, hey, what's your interest rate? They don't care about the interest rate. Honestly, they, what they really want to know is what's my payment going to be? But all they know, like all what they've been taught to ask is, what's your rate? So that's what they ask. It's the same thing with, you know, with people when they start to make a move. So, you know, I think really looking at where you want to take your business, if you're out there thinking about making a move, really working, looking where you want to take your business, and what is going to help you facilitate taking your business to wherever you want to go. Is that the leadership that we've talked about, right? Is it scalability? Is it having that ops support, the marketing support, that is kind of plug and play, right? It all comes back to a few basic things and it's what are you good at? What makes you money? What do you enjoy doing? If you can get your sphere of work to focus on those three things and everything else is kind of handled by someone else, you're going to have the balance, you're going to make the money, you're going to have all the things you're looking for. You have to determine what those are as you're looking and starting to have conversations to make a move.

Robert Fillyaw [00:30:20]:
So I see a lot of people ask stuff that is what I would call details. Like, they're important, but it should not be the driver. And sometimes there's too much focus on that. Does that make sense?

Dave Holland [00:30:30]:
It does. And you know, you touched on OP support. I think the bigger producers want to know that they have someone they can go to and get their transactions done without a lot of drama. I mean, we're, we're in a imperfect business because we're in a people business. So transactions are going to go sideways for a thousand different reasons, but it's how, how it's handled and executed and how quickly it's done.

Robert Fillyaw [00:30:55]:
Well, I think the, the great companies, the companies that retain, the companies that attract and retain have figured that out and, and get this simple foundational principle to it, right? Like if you're an originator and anytime there's a challenge on your loan, which we all know happens, right, that challenge falls back into your lap and you have to stop what you're doing and you have to figure it out and you have to get in the weeds on it, that equates business to problems in your mind and you're psychologically right, which is going to create an aversion to you and go, you're going to get more Business, you're going to think, the more deals I have, the more problems I have. I don't want deals because that equals problems.

Dave Holland [00:31:38]:
So you're being punished for getting more transactions, being successful if you don't have the right support.

Robert Fillyaw [00:31:44]:
If you don't have the right support. So when with the companies that figure out that, hey, when that happens, we're going to engage and we're going to fix it for you. Don't, don't be putting crap in.

Dave Holland [00:31:55]:
Right.

Robert Fillyaw [00:31:56]:
But you got a support team behind you. Go get more business. That's like, those are the places that we see people excel and stay. Yeah.

Tom Mills [00:32:04]:
You know, we probably could have took some of the four sections that we did in this, in this talk and made it each of those a talk.

Robert Fillyaw [00:32:11]:
And it's talking and of itself.

Dave Holland [00:32:13]:
Tom, That's a great idea, brother. For the next podcast, but actually so.

Tom Mills [00:32:17]:
We should end on something. And since we're here to provide value and resources. Robert, I think a great way to end. You would ask the question or you had said that loan officers don't know what questions to ask. Let's, let's spitfire a few questions that they should ask if they're speaking other companies or you know, speaking of their own company about trying to, you know, determine are they're in the right place. What a couple questions. Let's fire off, guys.

Robert Fillyaw [00:32:43]:
Here's, here's one of my favorite. It's not a question, but if you're, before you join anywhere anytime, you should randomly pick up the phone and call four to five loan officers that work and have a conversation with them and just have a, have an open. Frank. Hey, I'm interested in looking at onboarding with your company. I'm an originator. I have some questions that I'd like to ask you. How's your operations process? How do you feel? Do you feel supported? What's your leadership like? What's your business planning like? You know, what's the most important piece of tech that helps you grow your business? Where were you when you started and where are you now?

Tom Mills [00:33:21]:
If they were selling you something within the platform, ask if is there anything.

Robert Fillyaw [00:33:25]:
That they told you that would happen that hasn't happened? You know, that, that have you been over promised and never delivered?

Tom Mills [00:33:32]:
You know, you should also look at how long they, you know, talk to people that have been four plus years with the company or, and then talk to people that have been there 90 to 120 days. We don't have that data. We can look in red or we can look. We can see how long people have been on a company. And I'd highly recommend that maybe even going outside of the list that sometimes they give you that, you know, they may.

Dave Holland [00:33:52]:
Don't go off the list random way.

Robert Fillyaw [00:33:55]:
Don't go off the list.

Tom Mills [00:33:56]:
Go find them online and pick up the phone and say, hey, I'm, I'm talking to your company and got a few questions if you don't mind. I think that's. Dude, that's great advice, Robert.

Robert Fillyaw [00:34:06]:
What's yours? Dave?

Dave Holland [00:34:08]:
You know what kind of support you're looking for if you want, if you're a loan officer doing three to four transactions a month, how do I get the 10, do I get an assistant slash loan partner or LOA? I think those are important questions to ask and then to talk to people who have been on that journey within the company to see what it looks like. Someone who went from three loans to 10 loans. Because a lot of times people get promised assistance, they get to that number, they break their back and they don't get it. So I think that's an important question. And then you know, ask is, is this, is this the real rate sheet or is this the 90 day rate sheet?

Robert Fillyaw [00:34:51]:
That's a great question.

Dave Holland [00:34:52]:
We hear that over and over and over and I'm just blown away. And sometimes it's not even a slow burn up. It's just like one day we got.

Robert Fillyaw [00:35:01]:
Them smarmy, slimy, like just. I don't. Why, why are lenders out there not more transparent with their pricing? Like do they feel they don't bring enough value to justify the money? They're, everybody knows we're making money. We're not. This isn't a not for profit industry. Yeah. Why aren't we just transparent with it?

Dave Holland [00:35:18]:
Yeah. And when you lie to ellos or mislead them, you have unhappy people and it's a, it's, then it's a constant thorn. So it's just, our philosophy is it's just not worth it.

Robert Fillyaw [00:35:31]:
Not worth it. Yeah. How about you, Milsy?

Tom Mills [00:35:34]:
Dave actually took mine. I'll go. You know, in the end of the day, I think we're all led by stories. I think stories are what sells. Right. You know, and, and what inspires people. So, you know, there's some story that was told about that organization that you know is attractive to you and you want to go like live that story, just, you know, validate it, you know, whatever, whatever it is that has you ready to go make a commitment to that company, be sure of it. Like look for Validation like look that there's proof, you know, even small, smaller on a granular ever.

Tom Mills [00:36:11]:
You know I mentioned, you know somebody doing 100 million, somebody doing the look for that path validate that, that it's happening there. But you know the, the things that you question validate them the things that you're attracted to make sure that there is what you were sold them to be. You know from there I think a lot of, you know, a lot of questions on the person that you report to and, and their, their actually ability to help make decisions and react because I see, you know, juice, do they.

Robert Fillyaw [00:36:40]:
Have to get stuff done?

Dave Holland [00:36:42]:
Can they affect.

Tom Mills [00:36:43]:
Can you go to them and can the answer be had or they have to schedule three meetings to get the answer and it wasn't important to this guy and this guy's traveling next week and it's a month later and you're like hey, what's going on with that know we, we, we, we. We've talked to people like that.

Robert Fillyaw [00:36:56]:
So you know, what's the chain of command that's good.

Tom Mills [00:36:59]:
Could really understand what your chain of command and is the guy you're going to. Does. Does he have, is he, does he have any influence there? Because he's got to fight for you. You need your leader to fight for you and in any, in this business, in any company, that's the truth.

Robert Fillyaw [00:37:12]:
100%. Hey listen, thanks so much guys for, for joining us and hopefully you found some value in this episode. Go ahead and smash that subscribe button. Give us a like, make sure you tune in for the upcoming episodes. We're going to continue to just kick it around and hash out topics and hopefully bring some value to your day. Before we close. Guys, I, I just noticed this. Are you, are you both wearing EA appraisal swag?

Dave Holland [00:37:39]:
I. I guess we are.

Robert Fillyaw [00:37:40]:
Oh yeah. Look at that.

Dave Holland [00:37:42]:
I feel like last week.

Tom Mills [00:37:44]:
Hey, hey. Shout out to to the best appraisal management firm in the company, EA Appraisals. Our boy Will Eubanks are down in Dallas, Texas. I got this shirt dropped on me last week. I guess Dave, you got. I felt special. I thought I was the only one that got this shirt.

Dave Holland [00:37:58]:
We just noticed that now she's got a hoodie too.

Robert Fillyaw [00:38:01]:
I got a nice swag pack too. I didn't know I, I didn't get the email, the memo from you guys. We were going to do this though.

Tom Mills [00:38:06]:
I was with you guys the other day and I was going to bring my EA appraisal shirt and I didn't want to make you like feel offended. So I, I wore, I wore my HMA shirt.

Dave Holland [00:38:14]:
But Will needs a sponsor. The next podcast, then it sounds like.

Robert Fillyaw [00:38:17]:
Will, you Banks, we appreciate you, man. You and Manny, tallest Mexican you'll ever meet. Appreciate you guys. What a great conversation, guys. I really appreciate the topic and enjoyed just kicking it around with y', all, as always. Hey, if you're out there listening and we brought any value to your day at all, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and be sure to join us here for for every episode of Lending Leadership with the Mortgage Pros. On behalf of Dave Holland and Tom Mills, this is Robert Filyaw, and thanks so much for joining us.

Dave Holland [00:38:52]:
Great conversations. Thanks, guys.